Discussing the OBBBA with Bill Harden

Tax rules just changed—what’s real, what’s hype, and how should you plan?

On this episode, David is joined by Bill Harden, Associate Professor of Accounting & Finance at UNC–Greensboro, to unpack the “One Big Beautiful Bill” Act (signed July 4, 2025) and what it means for practitioners and clients this planning season. 

Episode Highlights:

Mid-year passage & why July beats January for tax changes (3:56)
New “production property” 100% bonus and the §1245 vs §1250 recapture traps (5:29)
Energy incentives: EV credits ending Sept 30, home energy credits curtailed (14:01)
Acquisition date vs placed-in-service—a big shift for credits/depreciation (17:28)
“Trump accounts” for minors: how they differ from 529s, $1k pilot, earliest funding 7/4/26 (20:56)
Tips & overtime are deductions (not exclusions) and must be reported to qualify (29:59)
Auto-loan interest deduction returns—benefits and AGI phaseouts (27:53)
SALT cap to $40k; mortgage interest cap still $750k—who itemizes now (36:11, 39:02)
2026 charitable floors, withholding/W-2 timing, state conformity watch-outs & big-picture advice (41:04, 45:15, 51:17)


Links:

For Continuing Professional Education Courses:
https://www.petersprofessionaleducation.com/

Guest — Bill Hardin (UNCG):
jwharden@uncg.edu

JamesWilliamHardenCPACHFC@gmail.com

Transcript

00:00:06:08 - 00:00:14:14
Unknown
Welcome to Accountable where your business is. Our business.

00:00:14:16 - 00:00:25:08
Unknown
Hosted by David R Peters.

00:00:25:10 - 00:00:25:15
Unknown
Hi,

00:00:25:15 - 00:00:59:15
Unknown
everyone. Welcome to accountable, the podcast where your business is our business. My name is Dave. Thank you so much for being here. You know, hey, if you have been paying attention at all, I think, over the last few months, the world of tax has really been in a state of flux. I don't know that I have I can remember a time, at least back to the Tcga, where we have seen more of mainstream media attention on tax.

00:00:59:17 - 00:01:21:14
Unknown
It doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen. And so, certainly that has been the case here with the one big beautiful Bill act that was signed into law on July 4th, 2025. And so today, we have a great guest that is going to help us talk through a lot of the provisions that are going on in this bill.

00:01:21:14 - 00:01:41:04
Unknown
And, just, tell us as practitioners, what we should be expecting as we're entering into planning season, as we're getting ready to talk to the about these things with our clients. I think that, you know, that this is, just a topic that is on everyone's mind. So my guest on accountable today is Bill Harden.

00:01:41:06 - 00:02:05:11
Unknown
Bill is an associate professor in accounting and finance at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro. He is also, someone who I've had the pleasure of, team teaching with, for several years. He teaches and speaks all over the country, and, is certainly someone, who is, is a great person to be talking about, such a big topic like this.

00:02:05:11 - 00:02:26:18
Unknown
So, Bill, welcome to accountable. Thanks, Dave. It's great to be, to be with you again. Like I said, you know, we've been teaching together now for a long time, so it's good to it's good to get back in this space. I don't think you and I have had a chance. Maybe it was your podcast a little over a year ago, I guess was the last time we did this, right when we had a chance to sort of sit down and talk on line like this.

00:02:26:20 - 00:02:51:03
Unknown
Yeah. And I have to tell you, my friend, this has been, just a, a very, I think tumultuous. I don't even know if that's the right word, but it's just been a year of change, I think, for a lot of practitioners, where we have this gigantic piece of legislation, that went through the, I guess the good news is, is that it went through in July and not January.

00:02:51:05 - 00:03:09:11
Unknown
So maybe that's a win. Yeah. You know, it's funny you mentioned that. That's, you know, we were sitting here, you know, they had talked about wanting to get it out, you know, March or April by Memorial Day. And I'll be honest with you, when they missed that deadline, I was thinking, okay, we're going to be here in December again, find a scramble.

00:03:09:13 - 00:03:28:22
Unknown
And then when it actually came through in July, I mean, you know, it's not going to be you've been in practice long enough to remember when they've actually done retro things from early in the next year and go back. And that is very unpleasant to have to deal with, because you can't go back and undo transactions from the prior year.

00:03:28:23 - 00:03:45:19
Unknown
So, you know, in that sense, yeah, it's really good that they got this done early. Now, you know, my I'm, I'm going to be nonpartisan is for my part of my deal with the university. So I have to be that way. And so I'm not really going to say whether it's good or bad. I'm just simply saying that if they were going to do it, I agree with you.

00:03:45:19 - 00:04:12:04
Unknown
It's great they got it done midyear instead of waiting until, you know, until, you know, January, just do it. And then making it retro. Yeah. Well, and I think that that's true. And I think, you know, regardless of kind of what side of the aisle that you're on, I mean, I think we as practitioners, we kind of cheered a little bit at the fact that we were dealing with this over the summer time as opposed to, you know, kind of right at the first part of the year because like you said, that's really tough, because you really can't do any tax planning when something kind of comes through.

00:04:12:04 - 00:04:42:17
Unknown
In January, we we we would be remiss, though, if we didn't mention, kind of the other piece of this is, is the fact that we're probably not done yet. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. There's going to have to be a lot of guidance, provided with respect to a number of these provisions. There, there, there are two new, although I'm hoping that they will sort of not reinvent the wheel on, on everything.

00:04:42:19 - 00:05:04:04
Unknown
If you want me jumping to, to a topic, I was, one of the ones that I think is actually very interesting is the one for production property. Yes, because that's the one, you know, where you now got the potential for things that would normally be 1250 property going over 39 years to get those things under, bonus depreciation.

00:05:04:06 - 00:05:32:17
Unknown
But, you know, when you read the, the law on that, a lot of the terms that they've picked, you know, with respect to production and with respect to like the resources and things, it looks a lot like you, you're you've been around long enough to remember the old production activities deduction. Yeah, that we had 20 years ago. And I'm expecting I should say 20 hoping they will simply revive a lot of that language so that we don't have to reinvent the wheel on everything.

00:05:32:17 - 00:05:54:18
Unknown
You know, we can just kind of pull what's already, you know, what's already there. But we'll see what we'll see. And I think what you mentioned, there is a very big deduction. So, for those of you that, maybe don't know as much about this, so this is a deduction for, qualified production property. It's going to fall under 168 I believe the code section is 168.

00:05:54:18 - 00:06:22:03
Unknown
And if I remember right, it's, I think it's subsection. Yeah. But, but anyway, it's an immediate deduction. What is interesting is, is it looks like what they want you to do is they want you to separate out the things that aren't related to the production process. Those aren't eligible for immediate depreciation, but the parts that are involved in the production process, those are available for immediate, you know, bonus depreciation, basically a 100% deduction straight off the top.

00:06:22:05 - 00:06:46:06
Unknown
Yeah, I would agree. That's kind of my take. Is it. You know, what we've got is, well things that weren't production but would have otherwise meant a 100% bonus could still do it. But yeah. And now we're really going to be dealing with two buckets, one of them for production and which now is going include other things, that would normally not have gotten because the old, you know, bonus depreciation, the normal rules or 20 year life or less.

00:06:46:08 - 00:07:09:19
Unknown
And so getting, you know, this ability to take even longer things fast. I think the catch there people have to watch out for is recapture. Bingo. Especially if especially in the first ten years, they're going to have to watch out for recapture. But but even after that, you know, there are differences in 1245 and 1250 recapture that people need to, you know, professionals need to watch out for and things like that.

00:07:09:19 - 00:07:30:05
Unknown
But, yeah. For sure. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. Go ahead, go ahead. I was just going to say, you know. Yeah. I mean, I think that you hit the nail on the head because that 1245 recapture is a is a much bigger deal. We don't get nearly the, benefits that you see sometimes on 1250 with the on recaptured, you know, 25% gain stuff.

00:07:30:07 - 00:07:53:17
Unknown
That's not a thing. What, 1245 and so, you know, 1245 you know, presumably it's going to be a full recapture rule on this. And so, that's, you know, could I, I think, you know, bite people. They're going to love the big deduction, you know, kind of in the first year. But, but that's, you know, a bit of a recapture, especially like you said, within the first ten years, that could be a, negative tax surprise.

00:07:53:17 - 00:08:16:06
Unknown
As a friend of mine needs to say. Yeah, yeah. If you don't mind it, let's just review for everybody out there a little bit. You know, about this, this difference. I mean, prior to Toby three, the really the only time we saw, bonus depreciation typically on real property was if it was something that then qualified for the 15 year life as an improvement.

00:08:16:08 - 00:08:16:13
Unknown
Right.

00:08:16:13 - 00:08:18:24
Unknown
And then because that 15 year life, you know, the jobs

00:08:19:01 - 00:08:35:13
Unknown
acted made that way you could bonus depreciate those. But that still stayed 1250 property. And so, you know, you you, if you held it long enough, you know, because remember, 1250 is just ordinary income to the extent that you have accelerated depreciation that you took faster than a straight line.

00:08:35:19 - 00:09:04:00
Unknown
So we think about 15 year property, if you've got it 15 years, there is no accelerated greater than a straight line. Right. And it's and it's all just going to be then on recapture 1250 which is just a higher capital gain. Right. But yeah. But on 1245 you know, the whole recapture amount is ordinary income. And so yeah, you know, and that's something we've always watched with 179 because when we take section 179 on things, it creates that 1245, that full recapture.

00:09:04:02 - 00:09:27:04
Unknown
People have to watch that on this, this, production property as well. I think you make a great point. You know, especially two I think it's important right now because we do see the increases in 179 as well, you know, up to a, $2.5 million deduction, at this point. But we should remember that depreciation is not depreciation is not depreciation.

00:09:27:04 - 00:09:51:16
Unknown
How you actually depreciate things still matters. And the code section that you choose to use still matters as well. So those distinctions between bonus and 179 are still very important I think. Yeah. Yeah. So would you, would you say that that is maybe one of the more impactful, you know, changes that we have seen as a part of AUB three?

00:09:51:16 - 00:10:19:12
Unknown
I mean, are there other ones that you would say or, you know, probably have the greatest impact? You know, that's the one that really jumped out at me as just a, big striking change. And I guess it shouldn't have surprised me that much, given that the administration has been trying to get this large. You know, they've been trying to get a large inflow of investment into the US and obviously giving a tax advantage for building things here is sort of designed to encourage that.

00:10:19:14 - 00:10:34:19
Unknown
Absolutely. Yeah. We'll see how effective it is. But it's clearly designed to do that. So you know, it's funny when I first saw that come out I was very surprised. But then, you know, in retrospect I say I shouldn't have been. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think I think that's true. I think, I think that's a great point.

00:10:34:23 - 00:10:54:13
Unknown
Were there any other ones that I mean, that really that you felt make made like this huge impact? There's ones that have gotten a lot of attention, you know, the tip deduction, the overtime deduction. But I'm not sure that those necessarily have the impact that, you know, maybe some of the other things that are out there really did, would you agree with that?

00:10:54:13 - 00:11:34:13
Unknown
Or am I maybe looking at it, too closely? No, no, I, I would agree with you. I mean, because when you look at the deduction and the, the overtime deduction, you know, they're fairly you know, they're fairly limited. I mean, you're not going to see more than $25,000 really of, income effect on anybody from either of, of of those, you know, so I mean, so I think they're, I mean, I think this is one of those times where you saw things discussed in the, in the political world, and it was felt that those, needed to happen so that basically you could you could keep the promises that you made.

00:11:34:15 - 00:11:56:07
Unknown
Right. But the dollar impact of those, I'm not sure is going to be, you know, it's going to be that that large, even though it's not, you know, doesn't jump out at you is it's kind of a critical thing, just the simple fact that so many of those things that we're going to be, eliminated in, you know, in 2025, just the fact that they've been made permanent.

00:11:56:09 - 00:12:14:08
Unknown
Again, it doesn't mean that we're not going to have changes because, you know, things are only permanent until we start to change logging. Sure. But at least it's very likely we have stability for about the next three and a half years. Right? Probably even a year after that. Before things could really be, you know, could could really be played around.

00:12:14:08 - 00:12:39:24
Unknown
And so in that sense, we've got some good, you know, some, some good timing benefit for clients being able to help them, you know, figure out what they're going to do because we would not anticipate, you know, dramatic change in the next, I think the next three and a half to four and a half years. And so, so that's, that's to me is a nice, you know, is a nice piece of, of the legislation.

00:12:40:01 - 00:13:14:07
Unknown
Having said that, though, one of the things that did surprise me quite a bit was the very abrupt end to some of these energy, provisions. Yeah. And let's, let's touch on that here because I think you, you you make a great point. Some of these energy provisions, they gave a very short runway in terms of when they were going to end, for example, the, the clean vehicle credits, both the used one as well as the new one, both the commercial version as well as, you know, the, the, noncommercial version.

00:13:14:09 - 00:13:43:19
Unknown
All of those set to end September 30th. There were some that were extended out until the end of the year, and a couple of other ones that were extended beyond that. But for the most part, it was a pretty quick cutoff. And I think if you were, if you had clients that were kind of depending on that, that could really be, you know, again, you know, kind of a negative, tax surprise there or maybe at the end of the year or to maybe folks that just really don't know some of those nuances.

00:13:43:21 - 00:14:05:23
Unknown
Yeah. And, you know, it's it's funny to me, not just the, I guess the vehicle ones going away didn't actually quite surprise me as much as the two. I, I want to get the exact Todd. All right here. So that's why you see me. You see me looking at the, the the home energy ones, the, you know, the energy efficient home improvement credit and that residential clean energy credit.

00:14:06:00 - 00:14:27:08
Unknown
Those were the two the, you know, you remember we were there was that one. Do you remember the old $500 lifetime? I think it was that we had on this one and it. Yeah, we finally get it. Where now they're going to say, hey, $1,200. It's each year and you can have people gradually make improvements. I was actually surprised to see that one just kind of basically be, hey, you know, we're going to get rid of that very quickly.

00:14:27:11 - 00:14:49:21
Unknown
You know, it's yeah, it's yeah, I thought it might go longer. Because that's been a very popular provision really for about 20 years. It's just it has such a small cap on it before that nobody could, you know, could really could really use it. Yeah. And I, and I think that that's a great point. And, and so, you know, you're referring to the $500 used to be a one time, credit.

00:14:49:21 - 00:15:09:23
Unknown
And so, you know, you would have this conversation with clients and they would say, hey, you know, I got I got these energy efficient windows and you're like, great. You know, 500 bucks. And they would say, well, what if I do it again next year? And you're like, well, that's a zero. You know, and, and, you know, finally you got to tell them some good news here within the last couple of years with the Inflation Reduction Act.

00:15:09:23 - 00:15:38:03
Unknown
And you say, you know what, hey, it's $1,200 per year. And everybody was really excited. And now that's been being pulled away. Makes tax planning kind of interesting there. I think especially for folks that have chosen to, you know, invest in some of these green energy initiatives. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that that area, you know, you know, I talked a little bit before the, the broadcast today about the idea that, you know, professionals are really trying to figure out what they're going to do about this stuff for planning.

00:15:38:05 - 00:15:51:15
Unknown
And those energy efficient ones are the ones where you really have to be thinking fast. I mean, if I was a professional, the ones that I would really be looking at, like now as opposed to November, are those because clients are going to have to

00:15:51:17 - 00:15:55:18
Unknown
decide whether or not to do these things or not very quickly.

00:15:55:20 - 00:16:11:16
Unknown
Yeah. You know, in a, in a toddler time window, you know, and then there are other things, you know, that we can kind of plan out more toward the end of the year if we need to. But, but for clients, you want to think about energy stuff that's going to phase out before this year's over. They need to think about that.

00:16:11:18 - 00:16:41:15
Unknown
I think you're right. I also think that it is interesting, too, that some of these provisions that we've already talked about, some of these things with energy credits as well as, you know, some of the things having to do with the, increased depreciation deductions and things like that. A lot of them are based off of acquisition, not placed into service dates, which is something that is very, I think we as accountants, I think we think in terms of placed into service, you know, I mean, that's just kind of how we think.

00:16:41:17 - 00:17:17:03
Unknown
And, you know, some of these things, we should point out that, like, you know, acquisition date is important. You know, we talked about, you know, bonus depreciation, at least as a, as it pertains to production property, the 100% bonus is based off of acquisition. And so, you know, so theoretically, then I could have bought something that would qualify for bonus depreciation on January 10th, but yet not placing into service until after Inauguration Day, after January 20th.

00:17:17:05 - 00:17:42:01
Unknown
And it actually would be under the old system. You know, it's still be that 40% bonus depreciation rather than 100 because you have to acquire it after, January, from January 20th, 2025 and forward in order to actually get that 100% bonus. Same thing with a lot of the energy credits too. It's based off of acquisition date, which I think is is an important point, I think for practitioners.

00:17:42:03 - 00:18:02:22
Unknown
Yeah, I think a lot of these energy credits, like the residential, as I was just mentioning, I think they use the term expenditure right law. It's like when you when did you have the expenditure. Yes. You're right, that's different than necessarily placing it in service. And so you can like yeah. So professionals need to really pay attention. You know I know you know I drove my students go back and look at the code.

00:18:02:22 - 00:18:23:22
Unknown
I always start your tax research with the code. Go back and look at what the law, you know, actually says. Because sometimes people will paraphrase they'll they'll mix or miss a word. And an expenditure is a very different word than use a placing in service. Right? Right. Yeah. It's yeah. Yeah. I think those are all great points.

00:18:24:02 - 00:18:41:21
Unknown
You mentioned some of the things that you thought were a surprise. Were there any thing, it was there anything else that you looked at and you're like, man, I just I thought we were going a different way, than than where we ended up. But we did see a lot of extension, extenders. I think that that is, you know, fair to say.

00:18:41:21 - 00:19:03:24
Unknown
So maybe on some level, maybe the surprises is how many things just got extended and maybe how many things didn't change from from the Tcga, I don't know what what would you say? Were there anything that kind of anything that stood out to you? Well, you know, it really is no surprise I was sort of, you know, curious where they would end up with respect to the state tax deduction.

00:19:04:01 - 00:19:21:06
Unknown
Yeah. And that's one where it looks like they sort of compromised and then, you know, sort of pushed the problem down. The, you know, down the field. I think I was surprised about a few of the things that are only coming in again for 3 or 4 years, like the, the, like the Trump savings.

00:19:21:06 - 00:19:41:05
Unknown
Now, the Trump accounts. Trump account for the for the kids, I guess might be because they're budget numbers that he didn't feel they could, you know, can take it longer than that. But but I was sort of surprised to see another round of things that, you know, 3 or 4 years as opposed to, you know, as opposed to a longer period of time.

00:19:41:07 - 00:20:09:19
Unknown
Those Trump accounts, I think, are interesting. So for those that maybe, haven't haven't heard that that term before, this is a tax deferred savings account for minors. That's probably the simplest way to describe it. And what is interesting about them is, is is that they are going to be a tax deferred way to save if you use them for certain purposes, you get a preferential tax rate on the distribution.

00:20:09:21 - 00:20:38:14
Unknown
You get a capital gains rate. And rather than the, ordinary income rate, they, the accounts themselves, can be used for different purposes. So, you know, where as a 529 plan, which is where a lot of the comparisons have seemingly been to these Trump accounts for for a good reason. You can use the Trump account for education stuff, but you don't have to, which is which is the interesting thing I think about these bills is that you don't have to use them for education.

00:20:38:16 - 00:21:02:08
Unknown
So, so it's a little bit different than a, like a 529 plan where you're kind of restricted to just higher education. Exactly. Yeah. The, the, the these accounts, like I said to me, when I read the rules, it seemed like it really is just sort of a, a savings slash investment, sort of in mainstream investment types of things that the kids can have.

00:21:02:10 - 00:21:20:01
Unknown
And then it's, you know, when they, you know, you know, there's getting all that tax deferred sort of growth in. And because you're not getting taxed on your investment income year to year. So clearly that, you know, that would be helpful compared to say, for example, having things that might be subject to the kiddy tax. Right.

00:21:20:03 - 00:21:41:05
Unknown
So again, I thought these were, you know, were were, were interesting. You know, you talked about the treatment coming out at the end. I'm kind of curious to see what they're going to going to do with that, because it looks like to me what they did is they just took the, the regular sort of IRA rules and then dumped this kind of savings account.

00:21:41:07 - 00:22:00:10
Unknown
Yes, on top of it. And so, you know, when I've been talking to people about this, I've been saying, you know, we're probably going to have an ordinary income effect at the end when we take this stuff out. You know, just again, simply because of the fact that, you know, they just put it on top of those IRA rules.

00:22:00:12 - 00:22:20:01
Unknown
And I think we're going to have to watch and make sure, you know, you know, how clients deal with this at the end to see how it's going to be going to be taxed. But for me, the big benefit is that this deferral of on the income, you know, along the way, the other thing that really is interesting is there is a, I think it's called a pilot program.

00:22:20:01 - 00:22:42:23
Unknown
Yeah. Technology. The pilot program. Correct. You know, it's funny where for these kids between, born between 25 and 28 inclusively. They actually can have basically $1,000 that just is put into that account. Yeah. By having the, basically by having the tax form done. Right. And so, you know, that to me is a really interesting kind of a, of an idea.

00:22:42:23 - 00:23:12:19
Unknown
Again, I'm not, you know, as a policy matter. I'm kind of like, yeah, I'm not sure how good this is, but yeah, it's an interesting one because it's something we haven't really seen. You know, seen before. Yeah. And so what, what you're referring to, Bill, is you're referring to the pilot program that essentially if somebody does not have a Trump account and the person is born from 2025 to 2028, the government, can essentially set up an account for somebody and actually fund it with $1,000.

00:23:12:21 - 00:23:32:23
Unknown
And so, it's an interesting concept. It's an interesting idea. I think, you know, it's interesting to see how these Trump accounts are really going to be used. One thing that we I think that we should mention, though, is right now, no one can actually fund a Trump account, because, because, that's not going to be for another year.

00:23:33:00 - 00:23:50:16
Unknown
So July 4th, 2026 is the earliest. So, you know, so if you're, sitting there thinking to yourself, why hasn't my financial advisor said anything to me about it? Well, it's because you can't do anything about it yet. But, you know, eventually it's it's going to come into play for the planning. Exactly. And they're going to, I mean, and they're going to need that year.

00:23:50:16 - 00:24:09:16
Unknown
It's good they did that in the sense that they needed to get out the guidance, because just like you and I have been talking about, there are so many clear things to us in these rules. We need the IRS to give us guidance. And of course, they're going to have to put out guidance to the brokerage houses and the financial institutions where we're going to maintain these accounts, for them to know what's what's going on.

00:24:09:16 - 00:24:31:08
Unknown
So, yeah, so luckily they didn't make this one instantaneous because that would have been, that would've been very difficult to, to, to deal with. I know, I know, some people in practice get real irritated when you talk about the, the health care legislation from from 2010. And again, I'm not going to get on about what we like or don't like.

00:24:31:08 - 00:24:50:18
Unknown
The the policy of it, but the one thing they did well with that was a lot of the stuff had dates 2 or 3 years out so the IRS could get us guidance. But yeah, a fact. And this is one of those where I was glad to see them, you know, see them do that so they have time to make adjustments for it.

00:24:50:20 - 00:25:15:10
Unknown
I think that's very well said. You know, one of the things that I think that we need to remind folks, is, is that, just because you have laws, that doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, every piece of it. And so, you know, so I think that that's an important point here, especially right now, I know that we're getting, you know, probably, if you're a practitioner right now, you're getting a lot of client questions because it's in the news.

00:25:15:10 - 00:25:44:09
Unknown
It's on people's minds. Like I said, I am being very serious and say in saying that I can't remember a time, at least for a while, that we've had so much attention on tax news right now. And so it's on clients minds. But remember, though, that it takes a little while. I mean, the normal flow of things is, is that we get a bill passed and then slowly over time, usually over a period of years, we start to get the guidance.

00:25:44:11 - 00:26:03:07
Unknown
And we have not seen a ton of guidance as you and I sit here and record this conversation, we haven't seen a ton of guidance from the IRS. We've seen a few things, but we haven't seen a ton of guidance, really getting into some of the details of some of these deductions and some of these credits and some of these new things.

00:26:03:09 - 00:26:25:06
Unknown
Exactly. Yeah. And for the stuff that hasn't changed, they just extended. That's fine. You know, and and even for things like the qualifying business income deduction because really with that when you they made it permanent. But the only thing that really changed is like for example, instead of having phase out windows of 50,000 and 100,000, we now have phase out windows of 75 and 150,000.

00:26:25:08 - 00:26:44:20
Unknown
So, you know, the regulations that are already out there, okay. This is easy to deal with. I just have to change a nominee or in my math, sure. You know. Yeah. And that's easy for the software programmers to deal with who do our tax packages because again, it's just, you're not really changing. I mean, yeah, they added that minimum deduction in there, but you know for keep you out.

00:26:44:20 - 00:27:06:13
Unknown
But overall that's not going to be a hard thing to to deal with. But some of the new ones some of the new ones. Well I'm sorry I'm switching subjects only because I just was, was looking at my, my, my review thing and it made me remember, I know I've been a long time dealing with taxes because we've now come full circle on the auto loan interest deduction.

00:27:06:15 - 00:27:24:17
Unknown
So I can remember learning taxes when we used to get that before the 1986 Tax Act. Yeah I'm that old. Yeah. Now you know how they bring that one back. I guess that's one that actually did kind of surprise me a little bit because I hadn't I hadn't even thought about that, you know, because we didn't have it, you know, since 1986.

00:27:24:17 - 00:27:46:19
Unknown
And then now they're like, what is it, $10,000, I think. But it's. Yeah, you know, it is an interesting that one in particular, I think is, is interesting to, simply because, while a lot was made of that, one of the things the practitioners have to watch is, is that is that that one begins to phase out actually pretty at a, at a pretty low AGI level.

00:27:46:19 - 00:28:06:18
Unknown
And so, that one is actually a little bit lower than what you see with the tip deduction and the, the overtime deduction. It's actually a little bit lower. It starts to phase out a little bit sooner. Now that being said, you know, just kind of practically speaking, $10,000 of interest on an auto loan in a year is kind of a lot.

00:28:06:21 - 00:28:27:06
Unknown
So, you know, so I think that the number of people that you see kind of going up over that, you're probably not going to see that a lot and maybe a little bit of even if you're in the phase out, probably still okay. But you know, is kind of interesting that they chose to phase that one out a little bit faster than maybe some of these other things.

00:28:27:08 - 00:28:48:14
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. I agree, there are a number of provisions, as you know, in here that that do cut based on, you know, the, the income level, you know, the tip one does that the, the overtime one, does that. I'm not really sure. Like I said, the people who would be earning overtime, I'm not sure they'll ever actually get into that point of having it, you know, phased out.

00:28:48:14 - 00:29:12:22
Unknown
You'd expect most people at that high income level to be, you know, to be exempt, you know, that type of, that type of thing. But again, it's just, it's interesting to see the way they, the way they did that. Yeah. So let's, let's, let's talk a little bit about that, about that wage, that, overtime deduction and that tip deduction because, we did mention it, but we didn't really kind of dive into this here.

00:29:12:24 - 00:29:36:00
Unknown
I personally think that this is, two interesting points now. So, so one thing to be clear on, I've gotten this question a lot from a lot of practitioners. I think that when you hear no taxes on tips, when you hear things like no taxes on overtime, people assume that that is an exclusion. It is not. It is a deduction.

00:29:36:02 - 00:29:59:06
Unknown
And it is. And and more specifically, it's supposed to be a deduction that is based off of what is reported. So so, you know, for example, if I don't actually report a tip that I got, I would not be eligible for a deduction. Right. That's that's an incredibly important point. And you know, the the law does talk about the fact that, you know, where tips aren't reported through the employer.

00:29:59:08 - 00:30:16:22
Unknown
You know, they talk about the importance of self-reporting, right? Those tips on the correct form in order to get that to, to go into the system. So so there's an interesting thing here, right? We're getting the tips you're going to get. Basically they're going to have to come into income and then you're going to try and get a deduction.

00:30:16:24 - 00:30:35:00
Unknown
But by them coming into income, remember this is there's going to be an employment tax piece of it. And so you know it's like I'm kind of curious just in terms of the, the behavioral aspect again. And I'm not saying that some people I'm not saying that anybody doesn't report the correct amount of tips. Okay, I'm not going to say that.

00:30:35:05 - 00:30:54:22
Unknown
But we believe that the service, at least I think believes that tips tend to be underreported. And it's why because our work so hard on it. But this will be an interesting one because now, you know, you can come into more compliance to get out of regular tax or to do that, you're going to incur the employment tax.

00:30:54:24 - 00:31:25:06
Unknown
And I think it'd be an interesting sort of behavioral experiment to see if now people will be more likely to more fully report because they get that deduction, even though it does mean, you know, there's kind of a trade off, less income tax, more more employment tax. Well, as somebody who, at least partly paid for his graduate school at the University of Illinois by delivering sandwiches, I can tell you that that tipping column is, is, pretty important, was pretty important to me as a college, kid.

00:31:25:08 - 00:31:44:03
Unknown
You know. Yeah. I mean, look, hey, I think that's, you know, there, certainly I did have colleagues that didn't report tips and that kind of stuff. And, you know, I, and, I, I knew better. I knew what I was supposed to do. And so, I was always reporting mind, but I, I do think it brings up an interesting point.

00:31:44:05 - 00:32:08:17
Unknown
The reporting itself really doesn't get easier for the employer. We should point that out as well. Is that, you know, they're really not getting out of anything. Through these things, the deduction is based off of what is reported. Not, you know, not necessarily what is, you know, what? You know, they may have have received if they didn't go into income like you said, there's no deduction available.

00:32:08:19 - 00:32:27:22
Unknown
The other thing that I think is important to realize, too, is at least with the tip deduction, I had a practitioner the other day, bill was in one of my seminars. He said, you know, he said, can I put out a tip jar on my desk? You know, as as people are walking out, you know, because they were just so thrilled at the way that he had done his, their tax return.

00:32:27:22 - 00:32:41:19
Unknown
He and other was so thrilled about that that they would want to leave that tip. That's all the way out the door. In addition to paying for the fee for the return, of course. That, they would be able to leave that tip, he said, as I am, I going to be able to take a tip deduction for that.

00:32:41:21 - 00:32:58:24
Unknown
And the answer to that question is no. So those of you there are practitioners, okay. Don't don't start bringing out the tip jar, okay. It won't help you out. At least not here. You know, although I don't know if you can get somebody to tip you for your tax return. Maybe that's worth it. I don't know, but, you know, but that won't get you deduction here.

00:32:59:01 - 00:33:19:18
Unknown
That's, That's correct. Yeah. Because the, the limited in the law is, are called to, professions that were traditionally subject to getting tips before this law passed. And then they're giving us clarification on that. You know, we're talking about before we get about, you know, seeing some things they put out, here in the last few days.

00:33:19:20 - 00:33:40:15
Unknown
But none of the things are surprising. It's what you would expect. It's it's like the, you know, the people who are in food service or, you know, like people who do cleaning services or people who are, home repair, you know, those types of things. I didn't see anything in the list that surprised me. Is somebody that.

00:33:40:15 - 00:33:57:19
Unknown
Yeah, these are the people that we would normally, you know, tend to tip, and they're not going to let us get into some game where we say, oh, I'm now getting tips instead of my salary or getting tips instead of my regular wages. They're they're not going to go for that. Yeah. And I think that that's that that's an important point.

00:33:57:19 - 00:34:23:03
Unknown
And look, I know that, especially over the last couple of years, we've heard a lot more, at least in mainstream media, about tipping culture and what's appropriate to tip for and what is not. I know that, that people have been examining this idea. It is important to realize that, according to, Obi three, that the IRS is going to come out with a list of professions that are eligible for the Tip deductions.

00:34:23:03 - 00:34:43:16
Unknown
So it's not like, we we shouldn't have to do too much guessing. In terms of what exactly is eligible for this? So, you know, again, I think that, you know, you're right. They're going to lean towards the things that historically we have always thought of as being, professions where you would customarily tip. So I think that that's an important point to make here as well.

00:34:43:21 - 00:35:00:07
Unknown
I believe that they are supposed to publish that list by October 2nd, I believe, is the date that they actually put in Obi George's. I don't remember the date. That sounds right. Yeah, yeah. So so that one's coming up here too. So anyway, you should get some clarity at least, you know, from that before tax season.

00:35:00:09 - 00:35:24:06
Unknown
I, I'd like to bring one up here just to get your opinion. You know, you and I have worked together, and, been friends here for a while. I, one of the ones that I personally was a little bit surprised. That was just the extender on the mortgage interest. You know, home home prices have, you know, have gotten to the point where, you know, people are taking out bigger mortgages.

00:35:24:12 - 00:35:48:15
Unknown
Interest rates have been higher, over the last few years. This is this is not anything new. I was surprised that we stuck with the first the interest off of the first $750,000 of acquisition indebtedness, as opposed to what would have happened if we would have just let this expire. We would have gone back to pre Tcga and that would have actually bumped it up to a million.

00:35:48:17 - 00:36:10:09
Unknown
Well, yeah. And if they had not, kept the equity piece where that was eliminated, you really could have gone into 1.1 million. So. Yes. Yeah, yeah. You know, part of me wonders if that was more a matter of them wanting it to appear that it's not strictly helping at higher levels of income than it's helping the so.

00:36:10:09 - 00:36:29:03
Unknown
And there are a number of pieces that clearly are geared toward the lower income, like the tip one and the overtime one and and things like that. And I wonder if maybe that's why that they did that. Or it could just be that again, they didn't wanna make their budget numbers worse. And so they, they left it at, you know, at the 750, but that.

00:36:29:03 - 00:36:45:01
Unknown
Yeah, I do know what you mean because, well, you because I'm here and I'm here in North Carolina and in, you know, the Greensboro High Point area where it's not really a high cost of housing. And and so, I mean, I mean, I'm sure you could buy houses are more than that, but, you know, most of us don't don't do that here.

00:36:45:03 - 00:37:15:00
Unknown
But, my wife's company is based in the DC metro, and they're, you know, you're going to pay $1 million for, you know, a normal family sized house, right? And so, yeah, it is kind of interesting in terms of the the limitation on that. You know, I don't know, the the cynical part of me would tell you it's because the government has so much debt now that they don't want anybody else out there borrowing besides them, because they don't want to do the cost of borrowing.

00:37:15:02 - 00:37:35:01
Unknown
Right. But yeah, that's me being cynical. I don't I don't know that that's really the case or not. So I, I just found that one to be a bit interesting. Personally. I, you know, a couple of the things that I did, kind of before the final, the bill was finalized was I kind of speculated a little bit, and I kind of said, you know, I said if they were going to let one go and want to expire, that might be the one.

00:37:35:03 - 00:38:15:24
Unknown
You know, so it didn't come out that way. We're still at $750,000 interest off of the first $750,000 of acquisition indebtedness, no real changes to the definition of acquisition indebtedness either, which is also kind of interesting itself. So, interesting to see that one. I think what you do see, though, and what may be something that a lot of practitioners may want to think about, at least on the individual side, if you're doing, individual financial planning, individual tax planning is I do think you'll probably see more people itemize, this year as a result of some of these changes, because you do see the increase in the salt cap, okay.

00:38:15:24 - 00:38:29:16
Unknown
Up to 40,000 bucks. I think that's going to be the big one that causes some people to come back into the itemizing world who would otherwise have been out of it. I think that's going to be the big one in that, in that, in that field. Yeah. And I'm not sure how much planning you can really do around that.

00:38:29:16 - 00:38:47:20
Unknown
Maybe it becomes, you know, you go back to kind of the old school rule where you always have people pay their state income taxes. You know, by December 31st so that you can shove that, Q4 estimate into, the, the deduction, on the federal return, maybe that kind of comes into play a little bit more.

00:38:47:20 - 00:39:05:13
Unknown
But, you know, we should mention too, the Salt deduction does have a phase out, too. So, you know, so that's the other piece of this too. But in general, it's going to be at least a little bit higher. And presumably that might kick a few people up over to make them itemize one more time. I think that that's worth maybe noting here.

00:39:05:15 - 00:39:27:12
Unknown
Yeah, that's true. And of course, you know, we've had really even since the Jobs Act, you know, on the, the charitable contributions, you know, we've had people who will like, you know, stack their charitable contributions into alternating years to come and automatically or, you know, or not. Some other people have also used some account mechanisms to deal with charitable contributions.

00:39:27:12 - 00:39:55:15
Unknown
Right, to, to take the one big deduction one year and then have that account pay out over the, you know, the, the following year. So, yeah, this is, this is definitely one that I think people want to think about. A lot of professionals think about a lot. We get into late November or early December, start running some calculations, and see where those tax payments need to go, whether it does need to be December versus January, in terms of where you think you'll get the biggest effect.

00:39:55:17 - 00:40:17:06
Unknown
You mentioned charitable, which I think is another one that I do think it's, presents some interesting challenges here. Your charitable contribution deductions actually now have a flaw, associated with them. You know, it's, 0.5%, of the contribution base, for charitable contributions. On the corporate side, it's actually a 1% of taxable income.

00:40:17:08 - 00:40:40:10
Unknown
Floor. So that presents some interesting challenges there as well. I know that, certainly, you know, we did get, at least on the individual side, we did get, that deduction. If we're not itemized. But, that one's a little bit more restricted now than it has been in the past. No donor advised funds is, you know, the big one, I think that you were mentioning there.

00:40:40:11 - 00:41:05:11
Unknown
Yeah. And so, but, with itemized deductions, you know, that could create some trickiness because, you know, let's face it, what is the deduction on schedule A that people can, you know, can do the most with. It's probably charitable. You know, I mean, people don't really you know, you can't really create mortgage interest. You can't really create more state income taxes.

00:41:05:13 - 00:41:30:05
Unknown
So but on the charitable side, you can certainly do that. Yeah. But without flaw. That creates some, some, trickiness now that we just are not used to, I think. Yeah, that will be something definitely that we have to, to think about. Also, you know, I'm going to probably want to stack everything given that you have what is it, the $1,000 and maybe a couple $2,000 that they can do, even if they don't itemize in a given year.

00:41:30:05 - 00:41:50:22
Unknown
So now you would still want probably some charitable contributions, right, in those other, in those other years when you're not. Yeah. When you're not stacking them. But yeah, that I that's one I had not thought about at all was that they would put a floor on those, you know, on those things. I hadn't, I had not anticipated that one, that one comment.

00:41:50:22 - 00:42:08:04
Unknown
So and I know, at least for some of my, colleagues who work in the nonprofit realm, I know that, that is, is a particular concern. I think, you know, and I think rightly so. I mean, they are, you know, they're concerned about, you know, those smaller gifts, you know, where it's like, you know, hey, I gave, you know, 50 bucks to this, 100 bucks to that.

00:42:08:10 - 00:42:39:10
Unknown
You know, to your point, I mean, it's going to take you a little bit to kind of get up over that floor. And so, you know, if people aren't giving, and getting a tax deduction out of it, does that dissuade giving? You know, I think that that's really the question to be answered. I guess maybe the, the cynic in me, Bill, would say that, it's never worth it to give to charity just for the tax deduction, you know, but, you know, but at the same time that I do know that people, you know, clients, you know, think about it that way sometimes.

00:42:39:12 - 00:42:53:18
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, I agree, that's one thing that, you know, clients, you know, get to work with money, understand? You don't want to, you know, you don't want to spend a dollar to save $0.30, because then you're right. You still have to 70, you know, be something you want to do. I was just double check the reason you look at why.

00:42:53:18 - 00:43:15:10
Unknown
I was just double checking myself on the dates here. That flaw in the the for AGI, deduction for the thousand that those are both 2026 changes. Correct. So we should have mentioned this on the 2025 to the 2025 return. But we'll see those on 2026. And yeah, I apologize. You'll see me occasionally checking because my memory's so bad now.

00:43:15:12 - 00:43:31:21
Unknown
I used to be able to memorize this stuff and I never worried about it. And now it's like, think they they keep changing things, so I tend along, and they will check that day, you know, just. Well, Yeah. Bill, you and me both, buddy, I think, you know. So, yeah. So it is important to point out that the charitable one, doesn't take place until 26.

00:43:31:23 - 00:44:02:03
Unknown
The increase in the Salt deduction, is 25. Also with the tip deduction, that one is also 25. Same thing with the overtime deduction. That was an also 25. One of the things that we should also mention too, you know, because of both of those because this bill was passed in July, halfway through 2025, employers are allowed to use any reasonable method of allocating tips and overtime pay for that early part of the year when they didn't know they were supposed to be tracking such things if they weren't doing it.

00:44:02:05 - 00:44:28:21
Unknown
But, you know, so so some of these things it is important to pay attention to dates. But yeah, the charitable flaw doesn't take place until 26. But some of these other things that we've been talking about are 25. The auto loan interest deduction is also 25, as well. And so there's a lot of, you know, pieces, you know, some, pretty significant planning points, I would say, both on the individual side and I think on the business side, too, I mean, for, for a lot of these, deductions and credits.

00:44:28:23 - 00:44:57:08
Unknown
Yeah. And as I recall, I think they're going to coming out, change the withholding tables a bit to deal with the tip and the overtime piece. I think I'm not quite sure how they're going to do that, but I remember seeing something that the IRS was directed to, to do that. And so, there were I mentioned is people need to think about if you're expecting a certain amount to be withheld for the year, you might want to double check and make sure your monthly is still having that amount.

00:44:57:10 - 00:45:16:21
Unknown
That amount with, you know, withheld in coming out, because it may be that the tables are just a bit. Yeah. And so that we should be clear there too. So, so the, the actual forms themselves for 25 are not going to change. They've already said that. But for 2026, we're already seeing draft forms of the new W-2s and things like that to to.

00:45:16:23 - 00:45:40:08
Unknown
So the people are kind of knowing what is expecting. The IRS did want to give us at least a little bit of a runway, for this year, where they essentially said that nothing's changed, where I think it's going to be kind of interesting, though, is that, again, it's I think, you do have, if you do have a client that does have tips, again, the way that that law reads is, is supposed to be on reported tips.

00:45:40:10 - 00:46:04:12
Unknown
And so if the form doesn't change in a, in, you know, 25, but we have tips and we can also use any reasonable method for early, you know, for the early part of the year, for 2025. You know, we may get into a little bit of messiness. I would say, you know, in trying to figure out whether or not our client is actually conforming to the rules and whether or not we're entitled to a deduction or not.

00:46:04:14 - 00:46:26:20
Unknown
Yeah. And it may be that the client wants to self report the tips and deal with the employment tax as well. That's something I'm hoping we'll get a little more guidance on before the end of the year. But yeah, that's that's one of those pieces that will be interesting to to see how to do. Yeah. Yeah. So lots of interesting things going on here in tax land right now.

00:46:26:22 - 00:46:43:21
Unknown
Bill, what would you say is maybe, you know, something that if you could give some advice to some of the practitioners out there that may be listening to this, what would you say is, maybe some things to keep in mind as are entering into planning season as, we're talking about even more changes coming up.

00:46:43:23 - 00:47:13:23
Unknown
Any words of wisdom? Well, you know, this isn't so much a tax base. Just, you know, you and I both come from both the tax and financial planning side. Yeah. And, you know, I, I was listening to a financial planning podcast the other the other day, and it actually reminded me again that this idea that I think sometimes we start focusing on all these trees, like this tax piece and that tax piece, as opposed to, sort of a bigger picture thing overall, like risk.

00:47:14:00 - 00:47:36:11
Unknown
Yeah. And, you know, the particular I was listening was talking about, you know, leverage and what's a good rate of leverage and things like that. And, you know, I've changed over my life to the point that I just really encourage people now not to be carrying debt. For sure, other than, you know, car loans and, and, and a small amount of mortgage, you know, don't don't do that.

00:47:36:13 - 00:48:04:13
Unknown
And given, you know, you know, me, I get concerned about the, the budget, you know, the deficit levels, things like that. I don't mean to be overly pessimistic, but I'm sort of in this world of I think this is probably a, you know, good time if you look at their financial houses overall in order, and where they're not overleveraged just so that they have flexibility in case things don't work out the way they expect.

00:48:04:15 - 00:48:35:14
Unknown
I think that's an excellent point. And so, you know, I, you know, I don't know, I'm I'm really curious to see how the I know this isn't directly answering the question, but I'm really curious to see sort of what growth we do get in terms of tax revenues off of this. I love this legislation because, you know, that was one thing that's been talked about a lot politically is, you know, there's if you do the static thing where you don't take any growth into account, it's, you know, like 5 trillion.

00:48:35:14 - 00:48:57:03
Unknown
And then if you, you know, if you end up with, much bigger growth than is, you know, you do a dynamic scoring with a high rate of growth, you know, it ends up not being negative. And so, you know, it'll be interesting to see what actually, you know, what actually comes out when we, you know, when we when we see what the revenues do, one thing we know for sure, right?

00:48:57:03 - 00:49:13:23
Unknown
If we have 0% tax rate, we don't collecting tax revenue. And if we have a 100% tax rate, we don't collect any revenue. Does anything. Yeah. And you know, we just need to kind of see where we are in terms of how much new investment, you know, how much we grow the tax base, with this stuff. And I don't, you know, I don't know, I think you make a great point.

00:49:13:23 - 00:49:44:04
Unknown
I mean, you know, the really the the key to, tax planning is not necessarily even, you know, maximizing deductions, even necessarily what it is, is, is trying to, maximize your after tax wealth and, you know, and so I, you know, I've often told, clients, Bill, I've said, that, you know, nobody's ever gotten, mad at me as a financial advisor for ever recommending that they pay off the pay off their mortgage, you know, so, you know, their mortgages?

00:49:44:08 - 00:50:01:16
Unknown
Yeah. It's their biggest tax deduction or that mortgage interest. But, that's not something that's, you know, the people want to keep, right? I mean, you know, debt kind of keeps you working, and debt is the thing that kind of keeps you, you know, kind of kind of going. And so, you know, so, yeah, I think that that's well said.

00:50:01:18 - 00:50:30:00
Unknown
We still do have a lot of uncertainty. I think that that is, you know, kind of pulled out of this as well. Yeah. I agree, I mean, we, you know, we're probably got certainty on rates, certainty on deductions, like standard deductions and things like that for another four years. Beyond that, you know, again, we'll, we'll see what happens with, with the, you know, with the budget, but, you know, there comes a point where increased deficits become unsustainable.

00:50:30:00 - 00:50:48:14
Unknown
And so, you know, we'll see what they we'll see how much growth they get. And then that kind of kind of determine the one that we haven't talked about yet, that I'm really curious to see is how the states are going to react to all of this stuff. Yeah, we're they're no longer going to, you know, because so many of these states, they tired of the federal number one, they got to have balanced budgets.

00:50:48:16 - 00:51:10:06
Unknown
Yeah. You know, and you know, North Carolina has always had kind of the crazy add back of, you know, the 85%, the bonus depreciation. I'm really curious to see what they have to deal with. You know, this year and of course, other states in the, you know, the, the same, but that's that's another area where professionals are going to have to really watch is to see how the states react.

00:51:10:08 - 00:51:28:03
Unknown
I think that's a great point as well. You know, I mean, the world of, multistate taxation, you know, any time that we see a big, you know, big, federal bill, pass through, they need to react somehow. And so, you know, so it is interesting to see kind of, how those, how those budgets are going to come together.

00:51:28:05 - 00:51:59:06
Unknown
It'll be interesting to see how interest rates, you know, come out of all of this to, you know, I think that, we are just in a world of flux, maybe. What the the message to the practitioners are is just, you know, is, be patient. And, you know, let these things develop and, maybe don't get in too big of a hurry to sort of jump on, you know, maybe, some, tax incentives that are necessarily going to put your clients in a bad, bad spot.

00:51:59:08 - 00:52:14:00
Unknown
You know, that, may not set them up well, for the future. Maybe maybe that's kind of more of the message. Yeah. No, I, I would agree with that. I mean, you know, now, I understand there are some things in the real estate world that seem to only make sense when you take the tax advantages, but the.

00:52:14:02 - 00:52:55:11
Unknown
Yeah, appreciate the things I can take into account or the leverage into account. But you know, in general, if a thing doesn't make sense absent taxes, you probably shouldn't be doing it. There it is. You know, it just you know, again, you know, chasing after just a tax benefit. It, I don't know, I just I just tend to think that's not really the, you know, the, the best thing to, you know, to, to do look at the thing that makes the most overall, you know, overall sense and you know, to me, my, my advice was just to do things that will keep you safe and, and, and comfortable.

00:52:55:11 - 00:53:13:20
Unknown
You know, like you said, people don't get mad when they, you know, when you've they've paid off their debt a little bit early, right? That does you know, that doesn't throw them, you know, doesn't throw them off a whole lot. And my philosophy is like, you know, what I tell my students is, you know, our job help people have the most after tax wealth they can in an ethical way.

00:53:13:22 - 00:53:31:14
Unknown
There you go. You know, it's what I that's what I tell my students. That's our job as professionals, you know, for tax and for financial planning. And so yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be it's going to be an interesting few years as we as we move forward. I think I, I couldn't have said it any better myself.

00:53:31:14 - 00:53:46:17
Unknown
Bill. So, Bill, I just want to say thank you so much for being on here today. I always enjoy talking to you, especially about this stuff. I think, you know, it's, you help help me, make some sense out of, some of these things that are going on in the world around us.

00:53:46:17 - 00:54:10:02
Unknown
And I, appreciate the perspective. And I know that a lot of our listeners appreciate the perspective, as well. If folks would like to get Ahold of you, how would they be able to do that? Well, you can reach me through, if it's if it's related to education stuff. I can't use my university email for non-university stuff, but it's related to our program at Uncg.

00:54:10:04 - 00:54:34:08
Unknown
You can reach me at j w h a r n at Uncg edu. And if it's anything that's not university related, my practice email, it's kind of long. I'll ask Dave to post it. It's James William Hardin, CPA, CFC at gmail.com. So that's kind of long. And so I'll just ask you to post that up, if you can, in your notes.

00:54:34:08 - 00:54:46:19
Unknown
And now, be able to, to get at me that way. Absolutely. So well, Bill, thank you so much for joining us. And, everybody, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of accountable. Thanks so much. Thanks again to.

00:54:46:21 - 00:54:53:17
Unknown
it.

00:54:53:19 - 01:03:33:08
Unknown
Thanks for listening to accountable. Be sure to subscribe for more interviews and insights from today's business leaders.

01:03:33:10 - 01:03:52:18
Unknown
Cat, I think that the that, we've given folks a lot of lot to chew on here. If folks would like to get, a hold of you, how might they be able to do that? Yeah. So I am the only Katrina Kebede in the world. Yes, Katrina. Like the hurricane. So if you spell my name right, you will find me.

01:03:52:20 - 01:04:29:01
Unknown
If you spell my name wrong, you will find a priest for the US House of Representatives. And you'll know you are definitely in the wrong place. That. There you go, folks. And so, so anyway, so, cat, kitten, cat, it has been outstanding to talk to you. Thank you so much, for just, your insight and, just your honesty, because I think that this is a great topic, and I think it's something that we, not only in the accounting profession, but, I mean, but, in just, as business professionals, it's one that, that I think a lot of us are just, you know,

01:04:29:04 - 01:04:40:21
Unknown
we're trying we're trying to do our best to figure things out. And, we appreciate your insight and just, everything that, you've been willing to share today. So thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed